32 ( +1 | -1 ) Caro-Kann InnovationI am testing out a new way to play the Caro-Kann, alongside with my chess coach, and i will be posting games and theories here. If anyone would like to help or take part in this discussion, I would be grateful, thanx.
614 ( +1 | -1 ) Two more database checksI looked in the MegaCorr database (on CD) that has 347,218 correspondence games. Of these, 14 had the same position after three moves but only 4 used the same move order. Two of the 14 were wins for white, with two draws.
The Fritz 7 database (357,908 games - mostly over the board) had 4 games with the same position after three moves, but not the same move order. 2 were wins for white and 1 was a draw.
Hope that helps. The MegaCorr games might be of interest to you. See the games in PGN format below:
74 ( +1 | -1 ) 2.b4I am using the caro-kann almost exclusively as my response to e4 as I re-learn the game.
Firstly: In the caro-kann the queens knight almost always is developed to d7 rather than c6, so it would seen that the main pt to b4 would be to prevent the coming c5 advance. However, this assumes that after 2.b4 that black will stick to the caro-kann plan by playing 2...d5. To me, a better response would be 2.e5 where b4 looks misplaced. The standard 2.d4 thus achieves all of the pluses of b4 without its apparent weaknesses.
Although a higher rated player might be able to post a better answer.
Anyway, as I'm learning the caro-kann as black a challenge would be most welcome, especially using the Panov Attack.
189 ( +1 | -1 ) Interesting, but...Certainly 2.b4 is premature and black has lots of nice options to choose from. The pawn in b4 is exposed for attack and I can't see any justification for such an early advance. A popular goal like "I will surprise my opponent" or "I will get out of the book and annoy my opponent" is not so big factor IMO because black has many options to choose from and most Caro players are VERY happy to play against premature pawn advances.
(Quoting Vincent Glorioso)
1.e4 c6 2.b4!?
the point is to prevent the Queen's Knight from developing to it's normal c6 sqaure.
Anyways, interesting experiment!
Now my personal and somewhat OT opinion...
IMO players of my level and below must study main lines first. To maximize your chances to beat Caro, you must know the basics of it. By choosing a sideline one tries to hurt opponent's play by forcing him out of variations he knows, but IMO this is not good approach unless one is already a very strong player. It's lot better to learn main lines and improve one's own play instead of trying to make opponents play worse, especially since choosing a "surprise move" defitenitely doesn't guarantee opponent stumbling...For example if you learn Panov variation, you learn more than a great weapon against Caro, you learn IQP positions as well! Learn advance and you learn many basic ideas of how to counter French defense. Learn main line and no matter what your opponent does, he must fight to equalize instead of getting equality and strong counterplay from move 2! By playing 2.b4 you can have an interesting experiment but it has very little to do with positions born from other opening variations (unless you play 1.b4 of course!). To quote an old saying in slightly modified form I can state my opinion (if you allow me to exeggarate a bit) - "Learn a sideline and you learn a sideline, learn a main line and you learn chess..." :)
20 ( +1 | -1 ) HmmmWell, main lines are better, but is 2.b4?! equal or even better for black theoretically? I am not qualified to give an answer, so I hope someone more advanced will help us out here.
But if 1.b4 is playable, why not 2.b4? :)
76 ( +1 | -1 ) Glorioso VariationOr perhaps, Labahn-Glorioso. I think this opening has merit and deserves further study. Certainly it is likely to test (given sufficient preparation) all but the best players as it appears to elicit responses such as 2. ... d4/d5/e5, as in the games above, all of which are inferior to the one below, e6. It is perhaps properly considered as a variation of Caro-Kann or perhaps Sokolsky (nominally speaking), and some effort in developing the line(s) might pay off. Note that 2. ...e6 attacks the pawn at b4. The only reasonable response is 3. a3, not the most natural appearing move. That additional innovation might just cause an inexperienced player with Black to wrongly conclude White is inferior and lead to incorrect play.
2 ( +1 | -1 ) pamela024can you expand on why e6 is superoir to e5.
39 ( +1 | -1 ) The immediate reasonis that 2. ... e5 can be attacked by 3. Nf3. The defense would be 3. ... d6, but that blocks the attack on the b4 pawn (note 3. ...d5 still leaves e5 undefended) . The next reason is that 2. ...e6 is a better footing for 3. ... d5, the continuation move (remember that powerful pawn at b4 which threatens to break up Black's queen side pawn structure). Now, can someone tell me the next reason? Hint: it is related to the first reason.
6 ( +1 | -1 ) Just saw peppe_l'spost above. Sound advice for all beginning players.
9 ( +1 | -1 ) I have to agree...about e5 now that I've looked closer.
What about a potential nf6 as an alternative to e6 bringing it to d5 on 3.e5
3 ( +1 | -1 ) is that ok to respond 3.Nf3 with 3....d5?
1.e4 c6 2.b4 e5 3.Nf3 d5
22 ( +1 | -1 ) 2. ... Nf6,as suggested by pawnstar is a line that should be investigated. Black seems to be okay after 3. e5 Nd5 4. a3.
3. ... d5 (after 2. ... e5 3. Nf3) is problematic for Black--immediately 4. Nxe5 and difficult position later. The trouble is simply avoided for Black if 2. ... e6.
101 ( +1 | -1 ) ...e5 is OK!Analisys shouldn't stop to 3.Nf3.
After for example 3...Bxb4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.Bxb2 Nf6 Black is ahead in developement and White has three pawn islands.
And 3...d5 is good too: I can't see the problems pamela024 talks about. 3.Nxe5 dxe4 (Qd4 is threatened) 4.Bb2 (threatening Bc4) Be6 and Black is, as asual, ahead in developement; follows ...Nf6, ...Bd6. Please, provide analisys demonstrating Black's problems.
Another good line is 2...d5 when 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 is fine for Black, with the idea of ...e5 (White has to lose time to defend b4).
Finally, after 2...d5 3.e5 Bf5 leads to the advance variation, where b2-b4 is a mere loss of time.
In conclusion, when a side plays unorthodox aimless moves (like 2.b4, which goal isn't clear to me), normal central thrusts are almost always correct answers; before condemning them, it would be better to analyze in deep the resulting positions, and to prove such statements with concrete variations.
17 ( +1 | -1 ) Yes I know...I wrote analisys :) Thanks pamela024 for your previous correction of my incorrect uncorrect :)
27 ( +1 | -1 ) by the way.....instead of a3 to protect the pawn, wouldnt b5 be better, and then if any x-tra help is needed to protect the pawn, then you would use a4, then if the exchange of rooks occurs, after Qxa1, white would have a battery against the castled king(if he does castle)
31 ( +1 | -1 ) I dont' liketoo much the 2...Nf6 variation; anyway, after 3.e5 Nd5. 4.b5 is answered by the simple 4...cxb5 when 5.Bxb5 Qb6 is good for White (6.c4? Qd4; 6.Na3 Qd4)
4.a3 is better but Black has nothing better than 4...d6 and after 5.Nf3 White still retains his slight opening advantage; it is because of this that I rate much better the 2...e5 and 2...d5 lines.
5 ( +1 | -1 ) ki'm just saying what my coach and i discussed.
60 ( +1 | -1 ) Brunetti, I don't seehow 3. ... Bxb4 can be played after Nf3. Perhaps you were writing or analyzing too quickly because, of course, one would need to move the d pawn--best would be to d5 as suggested by acne.
If 2. ...d5 3. exd5, your response of 3. ... Qxd5 seems awkward at best, and 4. ... Qd6 invites trouble. Indepth analysis based on a sound foundation is always the recommended methodological prescription.
You're quite welcome about the English. I know how hard it is to learn another language as an adult. I recall my own troubles when years ago as a doctoral student I took up Latin for fun. Not as much fun as I had hoped! Note "indepth" instead of "in deep".
41 ( +1 | -1 ) 1.e4 c6; 2.b4...Here is some "last minute" analysis, sorry if there is something i missed
2...Nf6; 3.Nc3 e6; 4.b5 d5; 5.e5 Nfd7; 6.bxc6 1)6...bxc6; 7.d4 c5?! turns into the french, it looks like 2a)6...Nxe5; 7.bxc7 Bxc7; 8.d4 2a1)8...Nc4?!; 9.Bxc4!? dxc4 leaves black w/ an isolated a- and c- pawn 2a2)8...Ng6; 9.Rb1!? Bc6; 10.Bb5 Qa5!?; 11.Bxc6+ Nxc6; 12.Bd2 Bb4; 13.Nge2 Nxd4; 14.Nxd4 Bxc3; 15.Bxc3 Qxc3+; 16.Qd2
again, sorry if i missed something, left out something, or messed up.
23 ( +1 | -1 ) The rules of chessI have allow to move Bf8xb4 without having moved the d-pawn. I don't know what are you speaking of :)
Your "awkward at best" and "invites trouble" are still only words; please provide analysis!
83 ( +1 | -1 ) b4?Seems to be a very bad move, from a spontaneous and objective view.
1- It is too early to challenge black's queenside pawn chain which in some lines can be strong. 2- As the honorable Brunetti stated black will gain tempo when white protects the b pawn. 3- b4? does nothing for the development and dr.Tarrasch is roaring in his grave. 4- I can see that it hampers Qa5 which is played in some lines. 5- Maybe the move is played so white should have great control over the board? Often it's white that creates a massive battle around the king's nest but then it's too premature to play b4?. 6- Well said, the knight moves to d7 and then later either f6 or b6. b4? does nothing here either. 7- b4->b5 was suggested and white looses another tempo while black can still keep develop.
129 ( +1 | -1 ) BrunettiOn the first point there seems to have been some misunderstanding about the previous moves. If: 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4, then 4. Nxe5. If you play this line out I would trust that you would see that the N is hard to dislodge from its strong perch in the center of the board and Black's center is weakened. Obviously Black can avoid Nxe5 and end up with a better position by 2. ... e6. This is a basic, fundamental point.
On the second issue, I would hope that even novices would see that 3. ... Qxd5 is not a strong move (after 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5) as Nc3 pushes the Q back. The simple response of 3. ... cxd5 works much better. Then you compound the error by suggesting Qd6. If you follow this line out you will see that the Q is a "target" for attack (multiple ones--B on a3, f7, N on e4, b5) as I pointed out. A much better spot for the Q is, of course, d8, but, again, cxd5 obviates this trouble. Simple chess fundamentals.
Now, Alex, I'm betting you know this stuff, don't need mentoring in chess fundamentals and simply made mistakes by running through the positions too quickly. I have to admit I've done the very same thing many times! Good luck--and sorry "the bunch" is taking so long! It is difficult to get agreement when so many people are doing extensive analyses.
8 ( +1 | -1 ) Thanks pamela024I see it merely as an opinion because I'm far from expert, but if you call it an advice, I am happy :)
26 ( +1 | -1 ) i've done a little bit more analysis1.e4 c6; 2.b4 d5; exd5 cxd5; 4.Bb2 Nf6; 5.Nf3 Bf5; 6.d3 e6; b5 Qa5+; 8.Nc3 Bb5; 9.Qd2 0-0; 10.a3 Bxc3; 11.Qxc3 Qxb5; 12.0-0 ___________________________________________
1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e5; 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.Nxe5 Qe7; 5.Bb2 d5; 6.Nd3 Qxe4+; 7.Qe2 Qxe2+; 8. Be2 Bf8; 9.0-0 Nbd7; 10.Re1 Ne7; 11.Bf3 Nf6; 12.Nxf6 gxf6; 13.Nc3 Be6; 14.Nc5 Bc8; 15.a4 b6; 16.Nb3 Bb7; 17.a5 White has compensation for the pawn
6 ( +1 | -1 ) isnt anyonelooking? i just wanna keep this forum up.. :)
31 ( +1 | -1 ) Good job,v_glorioso12! Let me note two quick things about the center (2. ... e6) line. You may be stacking the deck in White's favor. Why 7. ... Nfd7? What about Ne4? Note White's vulnerable pawn on c3. The other thing I noticed was 10. ... f6 (very passive). Here, Nc6 would be a good development move for Black and it also attacks d4.
125 ( +1 | -1 ) Pamela0241) 1.e4 c6 2.b4 e5 3.Nf3 Bxb4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.Bxb2 Nf6 (I already wrote that Black is ahead in developement and White has three pawn islands). White Knight on e5 is dislodgeable at pleasure (Nbd7; Bd6; 0-0, Re8; f6); Black's center is weakened? Where? He has no pawn center, then what is weakened? Indeed he has open files for his heavy pieces, and the lead in developement will allow him to occupy these files.
I'm ready to play with Black this my main line.
2) 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 You are too dogmatic in all your posts; you can't name error that move ("even a novice knows") just because Nc3 attacks the Queen. Think at the Center Counter. Chess fundamentals state that a Queen is much better placed on d8 than d6? Qd6 is a target leading to troubles? PROVIDE VARIATIONS!
3...cxd5 is also good, I don't say no. I just want to see a refutation of Qxd5 based on analysis, not on dogmas.
After your 2...e6, where is the light-squared Bishop going to play? 3.Ab2 d5 4.e5!? for example: 4...Bxb4 5.Qxg4 Bf8 (and Black has 8 men at home).
Yes, I need to be mentored to these chess fundamentals, since they differs from those I know; e.g. how do you judge 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6? Is it good to develop a Black Bishop on d6 when there're pawns at c7, d7 and e5?
21 ( +1 | -1 ) to your 1st question... White can move Bb2, dollowed by Qc2, Nbd2, and 0-0
to your 2nd question white can proceed with 11.dxc5 Nxc5; 12.Bxh7(or 12.Bxc5 Qxc5 followed by 13.Bxh7)
hope this helped
23 ( +1 | -1 ) Good thinking, v_glorioso12Now consider: 1. Do you think Ne4 would be a better perch for Black than retreating to d7, regardless of whether c3 can be defended? And note how Black ties up White's pieces. 2. After 11. dxc5, then Qd8! If 12. Bxh7 then White's B is trapped, by g6.
to numba 2, white can just take on g6, after pawn takes, queen takes, exchanging bishop for 3 pawns, and white has 2 passed pawns; wheather its important or all in the middle game, in the ending, if no side takes control of the other, and the material stays even, the bishop is no match to the 2 passed pawns with the help of the king, when it advancesto the 5th-8th rank
5 ( +1 | -1 ) What if14. ... Kf8? Then 15. ? Ndxe5. It would be an interesting game.
2 ( +1 | -1 ) this isa cool discussion
7 ( +1 | -1 ) ummmmprob. bad for black, what about Ng5!! wins a pawn or mate
19 ( +1 | -1 ) Andyou are working quite hard. That bodes well for your future. Good luck! I'll be on later if you (or anyone else) would like to play the 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 variation. Exciting stuff!
17 ( +1 | -1 ) 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. c3 Ba5 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4--this is a better move than Nf6 as it attacks your piece, is the foundation of another attack, develops a piece (my N) and helps to clear the center.
20 ( +1 | -1 ) I have to tell you that when I look at the board now I see a positional advantage for Black. I think you need to rethink the notion of not defending b4--and I would suggest defending it with a3 as in the game I showed you. 9. ... Re8.
25 ( +1 | -1 ) advantage for black?i shouldn't say this, but your bishop on a5 isn't doing anything, it is just sitting there. and spaceqise, you have 5 !! i have 11 !! your knight is pinned (or it will be on my next move!) your queens bishop is blocked.....
36 ( +1 | -1 ) Taking another look, I will go further and say that Black's position is very strong and White's is losing. My position is without risk and yours is weak at c3, and as a result, d4. Also, you must keep defending c3 now, and doing that with a material deficit is suicide. See, when you failed to defend b4, you ended up having to defend c3--that is a bad trade-off.
3 ( +1 | -1 ) Okay, let's see. I will move: 10. ... c5.
14 ( +1 | -1 ) %^[email protected]hmmmmmm i see your point.. i should look more into the 2...e6 line this is probably bad, but....
34 ( +1 | -1 ) you have a big advantage, by the end of the 30th move, and i dont have atleast a 50/50 chance to draw, i will resign. after that, wanna start another forum just for these Caro-Kann games?
7 ( +1 | -1 ) sorry, my brother wants to use the computer, i will be back in 1-2 hours
45 ( +1 | -1 ) No problem. I was off for a long time doing the family thing. Yes, Black has a big advantage and the game (for Black) was both natural flowing (intuitive) and not very difficult. I would say the opening needs more work in the "e6" line and I really do think you must defend b4 from the get-go--I don't think the opening makes sense without it. As shown in the game by Labahn, you lose very little by defending b4. Why don't you start a game with acne. Move 30 or so is fine.
35 ( +1 | -1 ) 24. ... Ne4. You know I was looking at this game again and I now think that 3. ... Bxb4 is not the best move. Note that White must not let e4 be taken, so 3. ... d5 is better (Nf6 is not good because of 4. e5). White then goes 4. exd5 and now Black can take b4. With this play Black is now even stronger, suggesting, again, that not defending b4 is a blunder.
After this game, do you want to play more, but in another thread, with some different lines?
20 ( +1 | -1 ) 25. ... Nxc3. That should do it. I don't think Black can be prevented from winning now. About playing again, I think I need a break. Why don't you invite acne or someone else to try other lines?
20 ( +1 | -1 ) what about the line...1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e6; 3.Nf3 d5; 4.exd5 and now you suggest 4...Bxb4; 5.dxc6 common since tells you to take with the knight 5...Nxc6; 6.c3 Ba5; 7.Bb5 Bd7; 8.Qa4 Rc8; 9.Ba3 Nge7; 10.0-0 0-0; 11.Bd3 g6; 12.Qh4 f6; 13.Bb2 Qe8; 14.c4 Qf7
interesting game, white has -attack; space; initiative black has -1 x-tra knight out
23 ( +1 | -1 ) sorry, i made a mistake
1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e6; 3.Nf3 d5; 4.exd5 and now you suggest 4...Bxb4; 5.dxc6 common sense tells you to take with the knight 5...Nxc6; 6.c3 Ba5; 7.Bb5 Bd7; 8.Qa4 Rc8; 9.Ba3 Nge7; 10.0-0 0-0; 11.Bd3 g6; 12.Qh4 f6; 13.Bb2 Qe8; 14.c4 Qf7
interesting game, white has -attack; space; initiative black has -1 x-tra knight out
17 ( +1 | -1 ) Yes, I thinkthat line comes close. Good game. You are a very good player for your age. I'm surprised you didn't do better against acne. Good luck!
1-0 ... i should've resigned earlier, but my dad would've gotten mad...... :-(
feel free to post analysis or anything :-)
114 ( +1 | -1 ) a little patzer analysis...first of all i find 2.b4 intriguing v. the caro-kann and i think it's worthy of a try in a blitz game or something, probably not good in a long game but i've been wrong before. the most intriguing line i see out of all this is the ...e5, ...Bxb4, c3, Ba5 line with white building up the strong center for the b-pawn, similar to the evans gambit.
in your game -
- when i first played over your game, i thought that the b5 push was a little early but i would be happy enough with the position after 13.a4 - for the people playing over the game, the moves are 20. ... Be3 21.Nxd3 cxd3 22.Qxd3 -after 22. Qxc3 23.R anything c1?! may have been interesting i think...forcing him to give up the queen for 2 rooks...the queen and knight are known to work well together -unless i entered the moves wrong, can't black just take your knight on d2 after 26.Kh1?
in any case, you handled the opening fairly well but the c3-d4 pawn duo was easier for the opponent to attack and you thought, and you seemed to lose your way once he got into your position, by moving his bishop to d3 and then capturing the c3 pawn. i'm still gonna try it a couple of times in blitz to see how it goes :)
I'm in my office and don't have a chessboard to analyse more comfortable, but I had been analysing blinfold the position 1.e4 c6, 2.b4 for more than an hour and I hadn't find anything wrong with 2...e5!? I think the move is solid and flawless. What do you think?
98 ( +1 | -1 ) e5 is goodi dont see anything wrong with it, but there is 3.Nf3, which attacks the pawn and gains a tempo unless Qe7, blocking the King's Bishop, or Bd6, which waists the Bishop's move, there is d6, but that also blocks the bishop and the attack on the pawn. f6 opens up the king's position, and since i dont have a chessboard with me right now, i cant prove it to be bad, but it looks like it might fall into the trap similar to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5! fxe5 4.Qh5+ Ke7 5.Qxe5+ and white will win with his strong attack. but in this caro-kann variation, Qe7 looks good, (and as i said, i dont have a chessboard in this room, and i dont feel like going to my room out of this chair.) i cant see variations.
There is also the simple Bxb4, which after Nxe5, i have provided a variation a long time ago.
1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e5; 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.Nxe5 Qe7; 5.Bb2 d5; 6.Nd3 Qxe4+; 7.Qe2 Qxe2+; 8. Be2 Bf8; 9.0-0 Nbd7; 10.Re1 Ne7; 11.Bf3 Nf6; 12.Nxf6 gxf6; 13.Nc3 Be6; 14.Nc5 Bc8; 15.a4 b6; 16.Nb3 Bb7; 17.a5 it is a little 'out-dated', but no board in this room :-S shoulder shrug
31 ( +1 | -1 ) After1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. Nxe5 Qe7 5. Bb2 d5 6. Nxc6 seems to give white an advantage.
Was anything wrong with brunetti's lines? (1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nxe5 dxe4 5. Bb2 Be6=+; 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. exd5 Qxd5 6. Bb2 Nf6=+; 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd6 (although Qd8 is also good, white will lose time when black plays ...e6) is about =).
I was thinking in other move orders, you mention: 1.e4 c6, 2.b4, e5!?, 3.Nf3 Bxb4, 4.Nxe5 Qe7, 5.Bb2 d5..., but I think 5....Nf6! is better and I would prefer to play the black side. The best way to prove a variation is practice, if someone wants I can play the black side of the 1.e4 c6, 2.b4 e5!? with gusto.
18 ( +1 | -1 ) PerhapsI was only giving 5... d5 because vincent gave it, but I can find nothing wrong with brunetti's earlier suggestion of 4... d5 when Black seems to have an advantage in development.