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amleto 87 ( +1 | -1 )
attacking closed sicilian When I'm white I tend to play e4 most times and often get ...c5 in return. I immediately play 2.Nc3 because I don't want an open sic. whereI don't know very much at all. And also from a psychological point of view that 1...c5 players probably prefer open games.

My games typically get to a point like this:

[Event "Edited game"]
[Site "MAT228"]
[Date "2004.11.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 g6 5. d3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nge7 7. f4 d6 8.
Nf3 Qb6 9. Rb1 O-O 10. O-O
*

The move order is probably a bit off, and alternatives like ...Nf6 and ...b5 frequently occur, but typically I end up getting in trouble because of my opened up king, and I just dont know what to ie what my plan should be.

Please could someone suggest a different line, or slightly different system that has more obvious middlegame plans?

I'm looking for something a little more aggressive for white.

Thanks,

Amleto
soikins 130 ( +1 | -1 )
hmm... Take a look at Spassky - Geller Candidates match, 1968. For example:

[Event "Candidates qf4"]
[Site "Sukhumi"]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Spassky,Boris V"]
[Black "Geller,Efim P"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B25"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.d3 Bg7 6.f4 Nf6 7.Nf3 0-0 8.0-0 Rb8 9.Nh4 Nd4 10.f5 b5 11.Bg5 b4 12.Nb1 Nd7 13.Nd2 Ne5 14.Kh1 a5 15.Rb1 a4 16.Nhf3 Nexf3 17.Nxf3 Nb5 18.Qd2 a3 19.bxa3 Nxa3 20.Rbe1 Bc3 21.Qf2 Bxe1 22.Rxe1 f6 23.Bh6 Rf7 24.g4 e6 25.Nh4 g5 26.Nf3 exf5 27.gxf5 Kh8 28.h4 g4 29.Nh2 g3 30.Qxg3 Nxc2 31.Rg1 Bb7 32.Bf3 Qd7 33.Bh5 Re7 34.Ng4 Rg8 35.Qf2 Nd4 36.Nxf6 Rxg1+ 37.Qxg1 1-0

2 games of the match are deeply analysed in Kasparov's "My Great Predecessors" Vol. 2 and also should be in some books on Spassky, thought I'm not shure.

Though, Geller played the 6. ... Nf6 variation, the ideas are practically the same. I like the plan with h3, g4 and f5 knight manouvre Nc3-e2-g3 and Queen manouvre Qe1-Qh4 with a strong attack on the dark squares. It takes time and white has to hold the queenside (not an easy task) with moves like a3, axb4, Rb1, b3 (or c4 if there is a possibility). Black's plan that stops these ideas (therefore I have the most troubles against it) -- early Rb8 with b6, Bb7 and f5! Haven't found anything against it, yet :(

Of course there are a lot of different ways to go for white. For example a plan with d4 move. A plan that delays f4 move and includes Be3, Qd2 and Bh6 (very popular today). Choose your own, analyse, practice and you will suceed. It's not the opening that decides the result of the game, but the skill of a player.
wulebgr 93 ( +1 | -1 )
I love it when someone offers a facile assessment of the psychology of chess players. In Beating the Anti-Sicilians, Joe Gallagher claims that Smith-Morra players "are creatures of habit and like to play their first ten or so moves before looking up." And now amleto tells us that Sicilian players "probably prefer open games."

I play the French, the Sicilian, the Spanish, the Russian, and the Franco-Benoni against 1.e4. Do I prefer open games?

I'll tell you. I prefer transpositions.

My favorite line: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4

Not because it is an open game, though it is, but because I play the French on move 1, the Franco-Benoni on move 2, and by move 4, we are in a mainline of the Sicilian!

As for the line you give, I think your black player is a bit too cooperative:

[Event "Edited game"]
[Site "MAT228"]
[Date "2004.11.30"]
[Round "?"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B24"]
[Annotator "Wulebgr"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 g6 ({better is} 4... Nf6) 5. d3 Bg7 6. Be3
Nge7 $6 ({better are} 6... Nd4) (6... d6) (6... b6) 7. f4 d6 8. Nf3 Qb6 $2 ({
better are} 8... Nd4) (8... O-O) (8... Rb8) 9. Rb1 O-O 10. O-O *
cryptos 11 ( +1 | -1 )
Black's system. There is a difference when black plays Nd7 instead of Nf6. White really has to watch out for f5! collapsing the centre.
amleto 3 ( +1 | -1 )
thanks thanks for the ideas guys :)
baseline 6 ( +1 | -1 )
soikins That has always been one of my favorite games by Spassky!
soikins 157 ( +1 | -1 )
Closed Sicilian I wouldn't agree with wulebrgr that 4. ... Nf6 is better than 4. ... Nge7. IMO knight is not good on f6 it should go to c6 and the c6 knight should go to d4, thus the bishop on g7 is used with maximum effect. That's what Nimzowitsch tought. And Nimzo was a wise man :)

I agree that 8. ... Qb6 is not the best move. Though, a lot of club players tend to play that -- attacking a pawn, putting the Queen on one diognal with the king. Seems nice, gives tactical chances. But the move has strategic drawbacks -- it delays the queenside attack via b5, a5, b4 and it removes the Queen from the kingside. It is an important aspect, when I analysed the Spassky game and when I played a similar one here at GK, I understood that the combinational attack on the kingside is possible mainly because the queen has left the d8 or e7 squares.

baseline, yes, mine too :) I find it amusing that in there are two such similar games in one match:

[Event "Candidates qf4"]
[Site "Sukhumi"]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Spassky,Boris V"]
[Black "Geller,Efim P"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B25"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.d3 Bg7 6.f4 Nf6 7.Nf3 0-0 8.0-0 Rb8 9.h3 b5 10.a3 a5 11.Be3 b4 12.axb4 axb4 13.Ne2 Bb7 14.Qd2 Ra8 15.Rab1 Qa5 16.b3 Rfc8 17.f5 Qb6 18.g4 Ra2 19.Nc1 Ra5 20.Qf2 Qc7 21.Ne2 Ra2 22.Rbc1 Qd8 23.Nf4 Qe8 24.Ng5 Nd4 25.fxg6 hxg6 26.Nd5 Nxb3 27.e5 Nxc1 28.Bxc1 Bxd5 29.Bxd5 Nxd5 30.Qh4 Nf6 31.exf6 exf6 32.Qh7+ Kf8 33.Ne4 Qe5 34.Bf4 Qd4+ 35.Kh1 Rc6 36.Bh6 Bxh6 37.Qh8+ Ke7 38.Nxf6 Bf4 39.g5 Ke6 40.Qe8+ Kf5 41.Qxf7 Rc7 42.Qxc7 Kxg5 43.Qe7 Qe3 44.Ne4+ Kh5 45.Qh7+ Bh6 46.Qd7 Bf4 47.Nf6+ Kg5 48.Nd5 1-0

and the next Spassky's white game -- the on I mentioned in my first post. It's nice how Kasparov in his analysis of both games, shows how Spassky avoided the mistakes he made in the first game, creating the masterpiece that is the second game :) One can learn a lot form such games.
jstack 40 ( +1 | -1 )
question I have been playing the closed sicilian for a few years now. It is my favorite openings. I have learned a lot from the old great masters such as Spassky and smyslov. I would like to find a modern player who plays the closed sicilian. Does anybody know of someone who consistently relies on the closed sicilian to meet 1..c5? It seems all the great players of today prefer the open sicilian.
soikins 127 ( +1 | -1 )
jstack I'll have to check,when I'll get home. Short sometimes playes the closed sicilian, but you are right that none of the great ones plays it constantly. But why should you learn form the great ones? They are too strong to understand them.

I learned a lot from IM Ilmars Starostits games. He is from Latvie, so I have had a good chance to observe his games live. I saw how he crashed GM (then still IM) Kaido Kulaots in the Latvia vs. Estonia match on 100 boards in 2002. It was a really nice game:

[Event "LAT-EST m"]
[Site "Riga"]
[Date "2002.08.31"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Starostits,Ilmars"]
[Black "Kulaots,Kaido"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B25"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.d3 Bg7 6.f4 e5 7.Nh3 Nge7 8.0-0 Nd4
9.f5 gxf5 10.Qh5 h6 11.Rf2 Be6 12.Be3 Qd7 13.Raf1 0-0-0 14.Bxd4 cxd4 15.exf5 Nxf5 16.Nd5 Ne7 17.Rxf7 Bf8 18.Ng5 Bxf7 19.Nxf7 Qb5 20.a4 1-0

Later me and a pal of mine (sicilietis) analysed the game and since then this plan (9. f5 pawn sacrifice followed by Qh5) used by Starostits (see also Spassky -- Hort, 1978, Starostits - Nataf, 2002) became my standart weapon against the 6. ... e5 line. I have had couple of nice victories with it.

The point is that you can learn a lot from "avarage" GM's and IM's who stick to the same opening repertuare as you. If you follow their development you can see, how the ideas of the opening develop.
javannanda 39 ( +1 | -1 )
"My Great Predecessors" ? I own this book (vol 2, italian edition). soikins says that there is a Spasskj-Geller game with closed sicilian, but I can't find it! the only game I found (searching the game index at the end of the book) between them is a Geller-Spasskj, but it's a Spanish..
could someone please help me? thanks..
soikins 15 ( +1 | -1 )
javannada Sorry, a mistake on my part. It is of course Kasparov's "My great Predecessors" vol. III in which Spassky is discussed. Games Spassky - Geller are 369 and 370 (in the Russian edition).
jstack 49 ( +1 | -1 )
Soikins Thanks for your post. Of course I realize an IM game is just as useful as a GM game for a little class player like me. But the problem is when I do a search for e4c5 Nc3 I get too many games with too many different players. And how do I know which players are true closed sicilian players and who just play it from time to time. I am looking a true closed sicilain player. Starostits looks like a good player to start with. Thanks again.
soikins 44 ( +1 | -1 )
jstack deepen your search.

If you use ChessBase, use opening report feature after, say moves like:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.d3 Bg7 6.f4 Nf6 if that gove out too many games (depending on database you have), add moves like: 7. Nf3 0-0 8.0-0 Rb8. Using the opening report feature in ChessBase you will see a list of players who regularly use this line.
If you don't have ChessBase, then you have to spot some names that appear in game list quite often for yourself.
cryptos 14 ( +1 | -1 )
Anybody else hate the french? Playing white against the french, I can never find a decent attacking plan, and half the time I end up defending my poxy d-pawn. :(
lordoftherings 75 ( +1 | -1 )
soikins says:
"Of course there are a lot of different ways to go for white. For example a plan with d4 move. A plan that delays f4 move and includes Be3, Qd2 and Bh6 (very popular today). Choose your own, analyse, practice and you will suceed. It's not the opening that decides the result of the game, but the skill of a player. "

i totally agree...i am playing closed sicilian and generally i wait for moving f4 ;in some matches i choose play Nge2 ,Be3 and d4 it depends to the opponents' sequence of moves..

i am also curious about Grand-prix attack : 1.e4 c5 2.Ac3 Ac6 3.f4 ,Bc4,Nf3,d3,0-0 this variation is interesting too...

and for french also there is an interesting variation with f4 move..
1.e4 e6 2.f4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 than Na3,Nc2 trying to play d4 ...and if black moves d4 white plays Bd3 etc..you can look for this variation too.