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1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4.c4!?
I read that this 4th move of White puts the Caro-Kann Defence "almost out of business some years ago". Do you agree and why?
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After 4. .. Nf6
White plays 5.c5 . This is the Gunderam attack in which White has the queenside pawn majority. If White can support the c5 pawn ( b4) , he can try to go for a passed pawn. The analysis looks good, but I had poor results in practical play .
45 ( +1 | -1 )
This is the Panov attack. The quote you read, maykx, was made by Fine in a book written about half-century ago. At that time, the whole idea with c4 was a new one, and black players had difficulty coming up with good responces to such an agressive plan.
Currently the Panov attack is still considered to be a strong opening for white, used by several top-level grandmasters, but it hardly "puts the Caro-Cann out of business".
59 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4.c4 is a reasonable try for White but it's nothing Black can't handle. White is playing for cxd5, Bd3-c2, and then Qd3 against Black's castled king. After Black responds ...g6 (the f6-knight is usually sitting on d5), White hopes to gain attacking chances against Black's king. If the attack fails, he's stuck with an isolated d-pawn, giving Black winning chances in an endgame.
I've never seen keiserpaul's 5. c5 idea so I can't comment. Looks like a reasonable try just at first glance, although probably nothing Black need lose sleep over.
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in praxis black counterplay is based either using the d5 as strongpoint Nf6 e6 in more Nimzo/QG (depending wether Be7 or Bb4 comes) way or looking play or Nc6 Bg4 with caro flavour. the kingside attack for white is indeed a theme in case of this usual isolator position where black has taken d5 with knight. White uses e5 for his attack.
Black can take d5 with pawn but then the extra move in symmetrical structure may often count also if black delays recapture with g6, white may often be able to give it up in good terms with d6.
c5 is very usual idea here clambing the queenside organising the Panov bind and a passer. On move 5 it in my opinion is a tad too early due to possibility of starting to play for the e5/b6 as white has committed to a certain structure, before c5 black cannot be certain what type of game will come, after it he knows what he must aim for. however not most easy to refute surely.
All these are valid possibilities of play and appear in top flight atleast dortmund candidates had some panov games in it etc. It is not out of business surely.
What i had in mind is if anyone knows what is current evaluation about master Belavenets move 6... Be6 !?, still considered a sound try?
45 ( +1 | -1 )
Here's a strange and wild idea for black:
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Be6!?!?
Black's 4th move looks like a total newbie move, except that the player who played it against me was rated 2400 ... he says it's his own invention and he tried it a few times. I don't remember the rest of the game - it was a 15-minute game and we didnt write moves, but black (the 2400 player) had a pretty good position around moves 10-15, and I was lucky to escape with a draw.
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to note that that quote says "ALMOST out of business some years ago". As for keiserpaul's 5. c5, it seems premature to me; in many lines white will play for a c4-c5 advance (possibly creating a passed pawn on the queenside) but on the 5th move it should give black no trouble.
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..with atrifix, because instead of c5, white continue the attacking line by Bg5, forcing e6...and still, i think a fair defence for black.
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yes, the quote was made by Fine
..and reading the whole article about this defence made me feel that Mr. Fine wanted to stress that of all the defences, Caro-Kann is inferior (maybe he doesn't like the defence at all!).
Zdrak...the move 4. ... Be6!? is indeed interesting. How did you continue and what was black reply?
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1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Be6
Well, the bishop holds up Black's development, so I would try to keep it there as long as possible with 5. c5. I'd try to delay playing Nf3 for as long as possible to prevent Black from playing ...Bg4. Perhaps something like:
5. c5 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. Bb5, although I doubt White has much of an advantage here (if any).
I suppose White could play 5. Nc3 (hoping for 5... dxc4 6. d5 Bf5 7. Bxc4) but Black just plays 5... Nf6, and White will have to play c5 soon anyway if he wants to force Black to spend a move to reposition his e6-bishop.
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5. c5 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. Nf3 Bg4 8. Bb5 e6 9. Bg5 Be7 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa4 white will win a pawn. There are probably improvements for Black but the defense is much more difficult, having to move the bishop a second time justifies White's expenditure in c4-c5.
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Panov attak is probertly the strongest against Caro.Kaan, at least I don't like if my opponent plays.
I would suggest the sacrify of d5: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Qb3 Bg7 7.cxd5 0-0 Black's position is better... normally white give the pawn back by playing d6 in the right moment, for example 8.Be2 Nbd7 9.Bf3 Nb6 10.Ne2 Bf5 11.0-0 a5 12.Bf4 Bd3 13.d6 exd6 14.Qd1 (not 14.Bxb7? Rb8 15.Bf3 Nbd5! with easy play for black) and the position is equal... (Dolmatow - Adams, 1990, Adams lost later, because making a mistake)
Panov attak is playable and surely not out of time, but with correct play black has his chances.
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As I recall, the game (which started with 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Be6) continued 5.c5 g6 6.Nc3 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf6 8.Bd3 0-0 - but afterwards it all gets quite blurry, because, as I said before, it was a 15-minute game w/o writing moves.
Anyway, the impression I got from this game is that although 4...Be6 looks at first sight like an extremely weak move, it's in fact not easy to refute outright.
56 ( +1 | -1 )
is my note the the belavenets move 6... Be6 which got similar response in time (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. Bg5 Be6) it turned out after take on f6 black simply playes gx with similar idea as in g6 and stands fine. also c5 is not feared there due to idea Qd7 and then the Bg4 take f3 and pressurise d4. 4...Be6 seemed to have one old game in database i assume ideas are at about the same there.
Atrifix line on the 5 c5 lacks the attack on that pawn chain by either the b6 or e5 by black, black can reply 5.. e5 for instance. as is known in panov if c5 is allowed to keep squeezing black he is in irritating bind.
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It seems to me that even in zdrak's position white has a slight advantage due to the misplaced bishop on e6, which will have to be moved again. Also, my line with 5. c5 was intended to follow 4... Be6; 5... e5, is, of course, illegal :)
34 ( +1 | -1 )
ok cool :) looks more sensible then indeed (the pawn loss can be prevented by earlier rc8 if that is correct way to handle that pos, no faintest idea..) eep gonna actually use board at times during analysis from now on... and true enough have to be moved again but if (zdrak line) white proceed h3 to where.. one wonders
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from the Ottawa Closed (in Ottawa, ON) both players around 2200 FIDE
[Event "2002 Ottawa Closed - Championship"]
[White "Barclay, Wayne"]
[Black "Voloaca, Mihnea"]
1. d4 c6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be6 6. Bg5 Nc6 7. c5 Qd7 8. Bb5
h6 9. Bf4 g5 10. Be5 Bg7 11. h4 g4 12. Nge2 Nh5 13. Bxg7 Nxg7 14. b4 Nh5 15.
Qb3 Kf8 16. a4 Rg8 17. a5 g3 18. f3 a6 19. Bxc6 bxc6 20. Na4 Bf5 21. Nb6 Qe6
22. Nxa8 Nf4 23. O-O-O Qxe2 24. Rhe1 Qf2 25. Re5 Ne2+ 26. Rxe2 Qxe2 27. Rd2
Qf1+ 28. Kb2 Qb1+ 29. Ka3 Qa1+ 30. Qa2 Qc3+ 31. Ka4 Bd3 32. Rxd3 Qxd3 33. Nc7
Kg7 34. Qb3 Qe2 35. b5 axb5+ 36. Ka3 Rc8 37. Nxd5 cxd5 38. Qxd5 b4+ 39. Ka4 Rb8
40. c6 Qc2+ 0-1
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PLAYS THE PANOV ATTACK!
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...to feel uneasy doing CK Defense whenever my opponent is above 1800 because of this PANOV attack. Psychologically, I always feel that I will lose if 4.c4 is played. Doing the Be6 move is a little bit "crampy" and I don't see myself doing this defence variation. Don't you think that somehow Mr. Reuben Fine is right when he says that "c4 hits at the Black centre immediately, and hits hard"? I review all your illustrations and most of them, still, advantageous to white. Whew... maybe I have to begin moving the pawn one square more, i.e. c5 in my opening. =(
27 ( +1 | -1 )
is not really a serious variation. It has been played before, but it's a little unorthodox...try 4... Nf6 5. Nc3 followed by either 5... g6, gambiting the pawn; 5... e6, leading to a more solid position, or 5... Nc6, leading to a more dynamic position. You could probably find a lot of recent games for any of those variations.
64 ( +1 | -1 )
On the Panov Attack
Playing the Black side of the Panov Attack can be tricky as White does usually get a decent attack going. But Black can be happy with his prospects in that he usually has plenty of time to organize a defense, he has counterplay against White's d-pawn, he is defending a position that is positionally solid, and, assuming he defends successfully, he has most of the winning chances in the resulting endgames.
As someone who has taken on his fair share of isolated queen pawn positions as White, I think that Black's resources are more than adequate. One of the reasons I tend to play into such situations less often nowadays.
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Dont give up yet! Panov is dangerous of course but black has good resources (read posts by Caldazar and Atrifix)!
IMO Sicilian is as good as Caro-Kann of course, but only if one knows it really well...if not, black often finds his king checkmated after no more than 20-25 moves have been played :-)))
No good opening - be it Caro or Sicil - wins or loses by itself, its all about how well you can play it.
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..im still playing the CK defence. although very rare have i encountered players doing the PANOV attack, im now preparing myself just in case somebody does it again. im doing a study on this.
caldazar, atrifix... your comments are well noted.
peppe.... tnx! i won't give up... promise =)