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v_glorioso12 32 ( +1 | -1 )
Caro-Kann Innovation I am testing out a new way to play the Caro-Kann, alongside with my chess coach, and i will be posting games and theories here. If anyone would like to help or take part in this discussion, I would be grateful, thanx.

v_glorioso12
v_glorioso12 9 ( +1 | -1 )
a new way of..... playing it is
1.e4 c6
2.b4!?

the point is to prevent the Queen's Knight from developing to it's normal c6 sqaure.
v_glorioso12 46 ( +1 | -1 )
Here is a game! [Event "World Open"]
[Site "Adam's Mark Hotel, Philidalphia, Pennsylvania"]
[Date "2002.7.02-2002.7.08"]
[White "Vincent Glorioso"]
[Black "Alan Schaefer"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1489"]
[BlackElo "1422"]
[TimeControl "40/2 SD/1"]


1.e4 c6
2.b4 d5
3.exd5 cxd5
4.Bb2 Bf5
5.Nf3 e6
6.Be2 Nd7
7.0-0 Ngf6
8.b5 Be7
9.Nc3 0-0
10.Nh4 Bg6
11.Nxg6 hxg6
12.d4 Qc7
13.Nb1 Nb6
14.a4 Rac8
15.Bd3 Bd6
16.g3 Nc4
17.Bc1 Rfe8
18.Nd2 Nxd2
19.Bxd2 e5
20.dxe5 Bxe5
21.Rc1 Qd7
22.Re1 Bc3
23.Rxe8+ Qxe8
24.Rb1 Ne4
25.Be1 Bxe1
26.Qxe1 Nc3
27.Qxe8+ Rxe8

My opponent didn't keep track of time, and ran out.
getoutofhere 13 ( +1 | -1 )
from chesslab there are a handful of games in chesslab, but only
one has the move order e4 c6 b4, the rest are b4 c6
e4. I look forward to seeing your analysis!
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
cool thanx
mattchess 614 ( +1 | -1 )
Two more database checks I looked in the MegaCorr database (on CD) that has 347,218 correspondence games. Of these, 14 had the same position after three moves but only 4 used the same move order. Two of the 14 were wins for white, with two draws.

The Fritz 7 database (357,908 games - mostly over the board) had 4 games with the same position after three moves, but not the same move order. 2 were wins for white and 1 was a draw.

Hope that helps. The MegaCorr games might be of interest to you. See the games in PGN format below:


[Event "BPCF v USA"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "43"]
[White "Grant, P."]
[Black "Galvin, J."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B10"]
[PlyCount "34"]
[EventDate "1987.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. e4 c6 2. b4 ({RR} 2. e5 d6 3. exd6 ({RR} 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Bc4 e6 5. exd6 Bxd6
6. Nc3 Nf6 7. d4 Nbd7 8. Be2 O-O 9. O-O Qc7 10. h3 Bh5 11. Re1 Rfd8 12. Nh4
Bxe2 13. Qxe2 a6 14. Bg5 h6 15. Be3 b5 16. Rad1 b4 17. Na4 Nd5 {
Mestrovic,Z-Commons,K/Lone Pine 1978/MCL 01/1-0 (59)}) 3... Qxd6 ({RR} 3...
exd6 4. d4 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. Bd3 Ne7 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 Bf5 9. Bg5 Bg6 10. Bxg6
hxg6 11. Qd3 Na6 12. Nbd2 Nc7 13. Bxe7 Bxe7 14. Ne5 Bd6 15. Re3 Qc8 16. Ndf3
Qf5 17. Rae1 Qxd3 18. Nxd3 a5 19. Nfe5 g5 20. a4 Rfe8 21. Nd7 Rxe3 22. Rxe3 Ne6
23. c3 Rd8 24. N7c5 Nxc5 25. Nxc5 Rb8 26. Nd7 Rc8 27. Kf1 Bf4 28. Re2 Rd8 29.
Ne5 f6 30. Nd3 Bd6 31. Nc5 Bxc5 32. dxc5 Kf7 33. Rd2 Ke6 34. h3 Rb8 35. Ke2 b6
36. cxb6 Rxb6 37. Kd3 c5 38. Kc2 {
Vokarev,S-Dreev,A/Novgorod 1999/CBM 69 ext/ - (50)}) 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. d4 g6 6. Bd2
Bg7 7. h3 Bf5 8. Na3 Nbd7 9. Nc4 Qc7 10. Ne3 Be4 11. Ng5 O-O 12. Nxe4 Nxe4 13.
c3 Ndf6 14. Qf3 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Qb6 16. Nc4 Qc7 {
Schoeps,R-Breiden,R/Herxheim 1993/GER 05/0-1 (29)}) ({RR} 2. c3 d5 3. d3 e5 4.
Be3 Nf6 5. Qc2 Ng4 6. exd5 Nxe3 7. fxe3 Qxd5 8. Nf3 c5 9. Nbd2 Nc6 10. Be2 Be7
11. O-O Be6 12. d4 cxd4 13. exd4 exd4 14. Bc4 Qc5 15. cxd4 Nxd4 16. Nxd4 Qxd4+
17. Kh1 Bxc4 18. Qxc4 Qxc4 19. Nxc4 O-O 20. Rae1 Bf6 21. Re2 Rfe8 22. Rfe1 Rxe2
23. Rxe2 Kf8 24. b3 Re8 25. Rxe8+ Kxe8 26. Nd6+ Kd7 27. Nxb7 Kc6 28. Na5+ Kb5
29. Nc4 Kb4 30. g4 a5 31. Kg2 Bd4 32. Kf3 a4 33. Ke4 axb3 34. axb3 Bg1 35. h3
Kxb3 36. Nd6 Bc5 37. Nxf7 Be7 38. Kf5 Kc4 39. Ke6 Bf6 40. g5 Bb2 41. h4 Kd3 42.
Kf5 Kc4 43. h5 Kd5 44. g6 h6 45. Nxh6 {
- Winter,G-Chisholm,T/Suncoast 1999/CBM 68 ext (45)}) ({RR} 2. Bc4 d5 3. exd5
cxd5 4. Bb3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Nf3 Bg4 7. h3 Bh5 8. g4 Bg6 9. d3 e6 10. Bg5 Be7
11. Qe2 h6 12. Bf4 Bb4 13. O-O-O O-O 14. Nb5 Rc8 15. Nbd4 Nxd4 16. Nxd4 Qb6 {
Rostek,B-Lips,P/Dortmund 1987/TD 87\03/0-1 (56)}) 2... d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bb2
Nf6 5. b5 e6 6. Nf3 Bd6 7. Be2 O-O 8. d4 a6 9. a4 axb5 10. axb5 Rxa1 11. Bxa1
Nbd7 12. O-O Nb6 13. Nbd2 Bd7 14. Qb1 Nh5 15. c4 Nf4 16. Bd3 Nxd3 17. Qxd3 dxc4
0-1

[Event "SOK/88/28"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kleindl, Paul"]
[Black "Labahn, Dieter"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[EventDate "1988.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

{88/28 88/28 88/28} 1. b4 c6 2. e4 e5 3. Bb2 Nf6 4. Bxe5 Nxe4 5. Qe2 Qe7 6. Bd4
d5 7. d3 Nd6 8. Qxe7+ Kxe7 9. Nf3 f6 10. Nbd2 Kf7 11. a3 Be6 12. g3 Nd7 13. Nb3
Re8 14. Kd2 b6 15. Be2 Nb5 16. Bb2 c5 17. a4 Nc7 18. bxc5 bxc5 19. Nh4 d4 20.
Na5 Rb8 21. Rhb1 Rb6 22. Nc4 Bxc4 23. dxc4 g6 24. f4 Bg7 25. f5 Re8 26. Ng2
Bh6+ 27. Nf4 Reb8 28. fxg6+ hxg6 29. Kc1 Ne6 30. c3 Bxf4+ 31. gxf4 Nxf4 32. Bf1
d3 0-1

[Event "SOK-89-45"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1989.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Roscher, Joerg"]
[Black "Pommerel, Wim H. (NLD)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "16"]
[EventDate "1989.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 e5 3. Bb2 d6 4. f4 exf4 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. e5 dxe5 7. Bc4 b5 8. Bb3
Bxb4 0-1

[Event "SOK/88/28"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1989.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Heinicke"]
[Black "Labahn, Dieter"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "1989.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

{88/28 88/28 88/28} 1. b4 c6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bb5+ Nc6 5. c4 dxc4 6.
Bxc4 Qd4 7. Qb3 Qxa1 8. Bxf7+ Kd8 9. Bxg8 Nd4 10. Qd5+ Bd7 11. Nf3 e6 0-1

[Event "SOK/89/51"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1989.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Wobick, R."]
[Black "Hoffmann"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "20"]
[EventDate "1989.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

{89/51 89/51 89/51} 1. b4 c6 2. e4 Qb6 3. a3 Nf6 4. e5 Qd4 5. Bb2 Qxb2 6. Nc3
Nd5 7. Nge2 Nxb4 8. Nd4 Nd5 9. Nxd5 cxd5 10. c3 Qb6 0-1

[Event "CiF-TT-88-0059A"]
[Site "corr CiF"]
[Date "1989.01.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Breite, Wilhelm"]
[Black "Pommerel, Wim H. (NLD)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "42"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 e5 3. c3 Nf6 4. Bd3 d5 5. f3 dxe4 6. Bxe4 Nxe4 7. fxe4 Qh4+ 8.
Kf1 Qxe4 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. Kf2 Bd6 11. d3 Qf5 12. Qe2 O-O 13. Nbd2 Nd7 14. Ne4 Bc7
15. Be3 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Nf6 17. Ng3 Qe6 18. Rag1 Bb6 19. Bxb6 axb6 20. a3 Rxa3
21. Qd2 Ra2 0-1

[Event "CiF-TT-88-006B"]
[Site "corr CiF"]
[Date "1989.01.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kellerer, Horst"]
[Black "Pommerel, Wim H. (NLD)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "82"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 e5 3. Bb2 d6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Qb6 6. Ba3 Be6 7. Ng5 Bg4 8. Be2
Bxe2 9. Qxe2 Be7 10. O-O Nbd7 11. Na4 Qc7 12. d4 b5 13. dxe5 Nxe5 14. Nc3 Nfd7
15. Qh5 Nf6 16. Qd1 Nfg4 17. Nf3 Nxf3+ 18. Qxf3 h5 19. Qg3 Bf6 20. Bb2 Qb6 21.
h3 Ne5 22. a4 h4 23. Qf4 Nc4 24. a5 Qb8 25. Qc1 Nxb2 26. Qxb2 O-O 27. Qa3 a6
28. Rad1 Re8 29. Rfe1 Re6 30. Re2 Qa7 31. Red2 Be5 32. Ne2 Rae8 33. Qb3 Rf6 34.
Rf1 c5 35. Qe3 Rfe6 36. Rfd1 Bf6 37. f3 Qe7 38. Qb3 Bg5 39. Rd5 Rg6 40. bxc5
dxc5 41. Rd7 Qe6 1/2-1/2

[Event "Malyszko Memorial"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Blaszczak, Jan"]
[Black "Gugulski, M."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "76"]
[EventDate "1994.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 e5 3. Bb2 Bxb4 4. Bxe5 Nf6 5. c3 Ba5 6. Bd6 Bc7 7. Bg3 Bxg3 8.
hxg3 Qe7 9. f3 d5 10. d3 Na6 11. Nd2 b6 12. Qa4 Bb7 13. d4 Nc7 14. e5 Nd7 15.
Bd3 h6 16. Ne2 O-O 17. Kf2 a5 18. Rh5 Rfc8 19. Rah1 Kf8 20. Nf4 Ke8 21. e6 fxe6
22. Ng6 Qd6 23. f4 Nf6 24. Qd1 Kd8 25. Ne5 Qf8 26. R5h3 Nce8 27. Bg6 Kc7 28.
Qb3 Ba6 29. Rb1 b5 30. a4 Rcb8 31. Bd3 b4 32. c4 g5 33. Rc1 gxf4 34. cxd5 fxg3+
35. Kg1 Nxd5 36. Rxc6+ Kd8 37. Ne4 Bxd3 38. Nxd3 Qe7 1-0

[Event "Malyszko Memorial"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Blaszczak, Jan"]
[Black "Mus, Roman"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "76"]
[EventDate "1994.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 a5 3. b5 d5 4. exd5 cxd5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Bd6 8. a4
O-O 9. d3 Nbd7 10. c4 b6 11. Nc3 Bb7 12. Bg5 Qc7 13. Rc1 d4 14. Nb1 Rac8 15.
Nbd2 e5 16. h3 h6 17. Bh4 Kh8 18. Bg3 Nc5 19. Re1 Rce8 20. Nb3 Nfd7 21. Nh4 g6
22. Bf3 Nxb3 23. Qxb3 Bb4 24. Re2 g5 25. Nf5 Bxf3 26. gxf3 Qb7 27. Kg2 Kh7 28.
Bh2 Kg6 29. Ng3 f5 30. Qd1 h5 31. Ra2 h4 32. Ne2 g4 33. Ng1 Kh7 34. Kf1 gxh3
35. Re2 Rg8 36. Re4 fxe4 37. fxe4 Nf6 38. Qf3 Qg7 0-1

[Event "CAN ch-K50"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gibney, Eugene J. (IRL)"]
[Black "Morrell, Gordon (CAN)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B10"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[EventDate "1995.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. Bb2 dxe4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Ne2 e6 6. a3 Nbd7 7. O-O b5 8. Ba2
c5 9. bxc5 Bxc5 10. d4 exd3 11. Qxd3 Qb6 12. Nd2 O-O 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Bd4 Qc6
15. f3 1/2-1/2

[Event "DESC E0024"]
[Site "Germany Email"]
[Date "1998.10.31"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Guendling, Harald"]
[Black "Markus, Roland"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B10"]
[BlackElo "1413"]
[PlyCount "66"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. d3 e5 4. Nf3 dxe4 5. dxe4 Bxb4+ 6. c3 Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1 Bd6 8.
Ng5 f6 9. Nf3 Nd7 10. Nbd2 Nc5 11. Ba3 Nxe4 12. Nxe4 Bxa3 13. Bc4 b5 14. Bb3
Ne7 15. Kc2 a5 16. Kd3 f5 17. Neg5 e4+ 18. Kc2 exf3 19. gxf3 a4 20. Be6 h6 21.
Bf7+ Kf8 22. Rad1 Bb7 23. Rd7 hxg5 24. Rxb7 Kxf7 25. Re1 Rxh2 26. Rexe7+ Bxe7
27. Kd3 Ke6 28. Ke3 Bc5+ 29. Kd3 Rd8+ 30. Ke2 Rxf2+ 31. Ke1 Rh8 32. Re7+ Kxe7
33. Kd1 Rh1# 0-1

[Event "EM/M/GT/A015"]
[Site "ICCF Email"]
[Date "1998.10.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rosner, Dirk (GER)"]
[Black "Vehre jr, John L. (USA)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Be2 Bf5 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nh4 Bg6 8.
a3 e5 9. d4 Qc7 10. Nxg6 hxg6 11. Re1 O-O-O 12. h3 e4 13. Bd2 Nb6 14. c3 Bd6
15. a4 Qd7 16. Bb5 Qf5 17. Re3 Bf4 18. Re1 Rxh3 19. Bxf4 Rdh8 0-1

[Event "M-1617.1 IECC email"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Marshall, Ron"]
[Black "Richard, Andy"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "48"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. b4 c6 2. e4 d5 3. e5 e6 4. a3 g6 5. d4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7 7. Nf3 O-O 8. O-O b5
9. Bg5 Qd7 10. Nbd2 Na6 11. Nb3 Nf5 12. Qd2 Re8 13. c3 Bb7 14. Nh4 Nxh4 15.
Bxh4 Nc7 16. f4 Rf8 17. Nc5 Qc8 18. Be7 Re8 19. Bd6 Bh6 20. g3 a5 21. bxa5 Rxa5
22. Qb2 Ba8 23. a4 Rxa4 24. Nxa4 bxa4 0-1

[Event "M-3294.2"]
[Site "IECC Email"]
[Date "2000.03.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fortunato, Gino"]
[Black "Donders, Bart (NLD)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B10"]
[WhiteElo "1553"]
[BlackElo "1560"]
[PlyCount "91"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail"]
[SourceDate "2001.03.30"]

1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Bd3 e6 6. Bb2 Bxe4 7. Bxe4 Nf6 8.
Bxf6 Qxf6 9. d4 Bxb4+ 10. Kf1 Bc3 11. Rb1 Bxd4 12. Nf3 Bc5 13. Rxb7 O-O 14. c4
Rd8 15. Qc2 g6 16. g3 Qa1+ 17. Kg2 Qf6 18. Rhb1 Rc8 19. Qd2 Qd8 20. Qxd8+ Rxd8
21. Ne5 Rc8 22. Nxf7 Rf8 23. Nh6+ Kh8 24. f4 Rc8 25. Rf7 Rf8 26. Rfb7 Rc8 27.
Nf7+ Kg8 28. Ne5 Bd4 29. Nd7 Nxd7 30. Rxd7 Bc5 31. Kh3 a5 32. Kg4 Ra7 33. Bxc6
Rxd7 34. Bxd7 Rd8 35. Bxe6+ Kf8 36. h4 Ke7 37. Rb5 Bb4 38. a3 Bxa3 39. Rxa5 Bb2
40. Bd5 Bf6 41. Ra7+ Rd7 42. Rxd7+ Kxd7 43. c5 h5+ 44. Kh3 Bd4 45. Bf7 Bxc5 46.
Bxg6 1-0


pawnstar 74 ( +1 | -1 )
2.b4 I am using the caro-kann almost exclusively as my response to e4 as I re-learn the game.

Firstly: In the caro-kann the queens knight almost always is developed to d7 rather than c6, so it would seen that the main pt to b4 would be to prevent the coming c5 advance. However, this assumes that after 2.b4 that black will stick to the caro-kann plan by playing 2...d5. To me, a better response would be 2.e5 where b4 looks misplaced.
The standard 2.d4 thus achieves all of the pluses of b4 without its apparent weaknesses.

Although a higher rated player might be able to post a better answer.

Anyway, as I'm learning the caro-kann as black a challenge would be most welcome, especially using the Panov Attack.
peppe_l 189 ( +1 | -1 )
Interesting, but... Certainly 2.b4 is premature and black has lots of nice options to choose from. The pawn in b4 is exposed for attack and I can't see any justification for such an early advance. A popular goal like "I will surprise my opponent" or "I will get out of the book and annoy my opponent" is not so big factor IMO because black has many options to choose from and most Caro players are VERY happy to play against premature pawn advances.

***

(Quoting Vincent Glorioso)

1.e4 c6
2.b4!?

the point is to prevent the Queen's Knight from developing to it's normal c6 sqaure.

***

Anyways, interesting experiment!

Now my personal and somewhat OT opinion...

IMO players of my level and below must study main lines first. To maximize your chances to beat Caro, you must know the basics of it. By choosing a sideline one tries to hurt opponent's play by forcing him out of variations he knows, but IMO this is not good approach unless one is already a very strong player. It's lot better to learn main lines and improve one's own play instead of trying to make opponents play worse, especially since choosing a "surprise move" defitenitely doesn't guarantee opponent stumbling...For example if you learn Panov variation, you learn more than a great weapon against Caro, you learn IQP positions as well! Learn advance and you learn many basic ideas of how to counter French defense. Learn main line and no matter what your opponent does, he must fight to equalize instead of getting equality and strong counterplay from move 2! By playing 2.b4 you can have an interesting experiment but it has very little to do with positions born from other opening variations (unless you play 1.b4 of course!). To quote an old saying in slightly modified form I can state my opinion (if you allow me to exeggarate a bit) - "Learn a sideline and you learn a sideline, learn a main line and you learn chess..." :)
More: Chess
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
ok?
peppe_l 20 ( +1 | -1 )
Hmmm Well, main lines are better, but is 2.b4?! equal or even better for black theoretically? I am not qualified to give an answer, so I hope someone more advanced will help us out here.

But if 1.b4 is playable, why not 2.b4? :)
pamela024 76 ( +1 | -1 )
Glorioso Variation Or perhaps, Labahn-Glorioso. I think this opening has merit and deserves further study. Certainly it is likely to test (given sufficient preparation) all but the best players as it appears to elicit responses such as 2. ... d4/d5/e5, as in the games above, all of which are inferior to the one below, e6. It is perhaps properly considered as a variation of Caro-Kann or perhaps Sokolsky (nominally speaking), and some effort in developing the line(s) might pay off. Note that 2. ...e6 attacks the pawn at b4. The only reasonable response is 3. a3, not the most natural appearing move. That additional innovation might just cause an inexperienced player with Black to wrongly conclude White is inferior and lead to incorrect play.

1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. a3 d5 4. e5 a5 5. b5 Qb6 6. Nc3 f6 7. d4 Nd7 8. f4 c5 9. Be3 Qc7 10. Nf3 Nh6 11. Bd3 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. b6 Qxb6 14. Na4 1/2 Labahn-Lehmann, 1990
pawnstar 2 ( +1 | -1 )
pamela024 can you expand on why e6 is superoir to e5.
pamela024 39 ( +1 | -1 )
The immediate reason is that 2. ... e5 can be attacked by 3. Nf3. The defense would be 3. ... d6, but that blocks the attack on the b4 pawn (note 3. ...d5 still leaves e5 undefended) . The next reason is that 2. ...e6 is a better footing for 3. ... d5, the continuation move (remember that powerful pawn at b4 which threatens to break up Black's queen side pawn structure). Now, can someone tell me the next reason? Hint: it is related to the first reason.
pamela024 6 ( +1 | -1 )
Just saw peppe_l's post above. Sound advice for all beginning players.
pawnstar 9 ( +1 | -1 )
I have to agree... about e5 now that I've looked closer.

What about a potential nf6 as an alternative to e6 bringing it to d5 on 3.e5
acne 3 ( +1 | -1 )
is that ok to respond 3.Nf3 with 3....d5?

1.e4 c6
2.b4 e5
3.Nf3 d5
pamela024 22 ( +1 | -1 )
2. ... Nf6, as suggested by pawnstar is a line that should be investigated. Black seems to be okay after 3. e5 Nd5 4. a3.

3. ... d5 (after 2. ... e5 3. Nf3) is problematic for Black--immediately 4. Nxe5 and difficult position later. The trouble is simply avoided for Black if 2. ... e6.
brunetti 101 ( +1 | -1 )
...e5 is OK! Analisys shouldn't stop to 3.Nf3.

After for example 3...Bxb4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.Bxb2 Nf6 Black is ahead in developement and White has three pawn islands.

And 3...d5 is good too: I can't see the problems pamela024 talks about. 3.Nxe5 dxe4 (Qd4 is threatened) 4.Bb2 (threatening Bc4) Be6 and Black is, as asual, ahead in developement; follows ...Nf6, ...Bd6. Please, provide analisys demonstrating Black's problems.

Another good line is 2...d5 when 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 is fine for Black, with the idea of ...e5 (White has to lose time to defend b4).

Finally, after 2...d5 3.e5 Bf5 leads to the advance variation, where b2-b4 is a mere loss of time.

In conclusion, when a side plays unorthodox aimless moves (like 2.b4, which goal isn't clear to me), normal central thrusts are almost always correct answers; before condemning them, it would be better to analyze in deep the resulting positions, and to prove such statements with concrete variations.

Alex
brunetti 17 ( +1 | -1 )
Yes I know... I wrote analisys :) Thanks pamela024 for your previous correction of my incorrect uncorrect :)

Alex
v_glorioso12 27 ( +1 | -1 )
by the way..... instead of a3 to protect the pawn, wouldnt b5 be better, and then if any x-tra help is needed to protect the pawn, then you would use a4, then if the exchange of rooks occurs, after Qxa1, white would have a battery against the castled king(if he does castle)
brunetti 31 ( +1 | -1 )
I dont' like too much the 2...Nf6 variation; anyway, after 3.e5 Nd5. 4.b5 is answered by the simple 4...cxb5 when 5.Bxb5 Qb6 is good for White (6.c4? Qd4; 6.Na3 Qd4)

4.a3 is better but Black has nothing better than 4...d6 and after 5.Nf3 White still retains his slight opening advantage; it is because of this that I rate much better the 2...e5 and 2...d5 lines.

Alex
v_glorioso12 5 ( +1 | -1 )
k i'm just saying what my coach and i discussed.
pamela024 60 ( +1 | -1 )
Brunetti, I don't see how 3. ... Bxb4 can be played after Nf3. Perhaps you were writing or analyzing too quickly because, of course, one would need to move the d pawn--best would be to d5 as suggested by acne.

If 2. ...d5 3. exd5, your response of 3. ... Qxd5 seems awkward at best, and 4. ... Qd6 invites trouble. Indepth analysis based on a sound foundation is always the recommended methodological prescription.

You're quite welcome about the English. I know how hard it is to learn another language as an adult. I recall my own troubles when years ago as a doctoral student I took up Latin for fun. Not as much fun as I had hoped! Note "indepth" instead of "in deep".
v_glorioso12 41 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6; 2.b4... Here is some "last minute" analysis, sorry if there is something i missed

2...Nf6; 3.Nc3 e6; 4.b5 d5; 5.e5 Nfd7; 6.bxc6
1)6...bxc6; 7.d4 c5?! turns into the french, it looks like
2a)6...Nxe5; 7.bxc7 Bxc7; 8.d4
2a1)8...Nc4?!; 9.Bxc4!? dxc4 leaves black w/ an isolated a- and c- pawn
2a2)8...Ng6; 9.Rb1!? Bc6; 10.Bb5 Qa5!?; 11.Bxc6+ Nxc6; 12.Bd2 Bb4; 13.Nge2 Nxd4; 14.Nxd4 Bxc3; 15.Bxc3 Qxc3+; 16.Qd2

again, sorry if i missed something, left out something, or messed up.
brunetti 23 ( +1 | -1 )
The rules of chess I have allow to move Bf8xb4 without having moved the d-pawn. I don't know what are you speaking of :)

Your "awkward at best" and "invites trouble" are still only words; please provide analysis!

Alex
experiment2001 83 ( +1 | -1 )
b4? Seems to be a very bad move, from a spontaneous and objective view.

1- It is too early to challenge black's queenside pawn chain which in some lines can be strong.
2- As the honorable Brunetti stated black will gain tempo when white protects the b pawn.
3- b4? does nothing for the development and dr.Tarrasch is roaring in his grave.
4- I can see that it hampers Qa5 which is played in some lines.
5- Maybe the move is played so white should have great control over the board? Often it's white that creates a massive battle around the king's nest but then it's too premature to play b4?.
6- Well said, the knight moves to d7 and then later either f6 or b6. b4? does nothing here either.
7- b4->b5 was suggested and white looses another tempo while black can still keep develop.
pamela024 129 ( +1 | -1 )
Brunetti On the first point there seems to have been some misunderstanding about the previous moves. If: 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4, then 4. Nxe5. If you play this line out I would trust that you would see that the N is hard to dislodge from its strong perch in the center of the board and Black's center is weakened. Obviously Black can avoid Nxe5 and end up with a better position by 2. ... e6. This is a basic, fundamental point.

On the second issue, I would hope that even novices would see that 3. ... Qxd5 is not a strong move (after 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5) as Nc3 pushes the Q back. The simple response of 3. ... cxd5 works much better. Then you compound the error by suggesting Qd6. If you follow this line out you will see that the Q is a "target" for attack (multiple ones--B on a3, f7, N on e4, b5) as I pointed out. A much better spot for the Q is, of course, d8, but, again, cxd5 obviates this trouble. Simple chess fundamentals.

Now, Alex, I'm betting you know this stuff, don't need mentoring in chess fundamentals and simply made mistakes by running through the positions too quickly. I have to admit I've done the very same thing many times! Good luck--and sorry "the bunch" is taking so long! It is difficult to get agreement when so many people are doing extensive analyses.



peppe_l 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Thanks pamela024 I see it merely as an opinion because I'm far from expert, but if you call it an advice, I am happy :)

v_glorioso12 26 ( +1 | -1 )
i've done a little bit more analysis 1.e4 c6; 2.b4 d5; exd5 cxd5; 4.Bb2 Nf6; 5.Nf3 Bf5; 6.d3 e6; b5 Qa5+; 8.Nc3 Bb5; 9.Qd2 0-0; 10.a3 Bxc3; 11.Qxc3 Qxb5; 12.0-0
___________________________________________

1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e6; 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.c3 Ba5; 5.d4 d5; 6.Bd3 Nf6; 7.e5 Nfd7; 8.Ba3 Qb6; 9.0-0 c5; 10.Qc2 f6; 11. Bxh7 cxd4; 12.exf6 Nxf6; 13.Bg6+ Kd8; 14.Ne5 White had a distinct advantage
___________________________________________

1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e5; 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.Nxe5 Qe7; 5.Bb2 d5; 6.Nd3 Qxe4+; 7.Qe2 Qxe2+; 8. Be2 Bf8; 9.0-0 Nbd7; 10.Re1 Ne7; 11.Bf3 Nf6; 12.Nxf6 gxf6; 13.Nc3 Be6; 14.Nc5 Bc8; 15.a4 b6; 16.Nb3 Bb7; 17.a5 White has compensation for the pawn
v_glorioso12 6 ( +1 | -1 )
isnt anyone looking? i just wanna keep this forum up.. :)
pamela024 31 ( +1 | -1 )
Good job, v_glorioso12! Let me note two quick things about the center (2. ... e6) line. You may be stacking the deck in White's favor. Why 7. ... Nfd7? What about Ne4? Note White's vulnerable pawn on c3. The other thing I noticed was 10. ... f6 (very passive). Here, Nc6 would be a good development move for Black and it also attacks d4.
brunetti 125 ( +1 | -1 )
Pamela024 1) 1.e4 c6 2.b4 e5 3.Nf3 Bxb4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.Bxb2 Nf6 (I already wrote that Black is ahead in developement and White has three pawn islands). White Knight on e5 is dislodgeable at pleasure (Nbd7; Bd6; 0-0, Re8; f6); Black's center is weakened? Where? He has no pawn center, then what is weakened? Indeed he has open files for his heavy pieces, and the lead in developement will allow him to occupy these files.

I'm ready to play with Black this my main line.

2) 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5
You are too dogmatic in all your posts; you can't name error that move ("even a novice knows") just because Nc3 attacks the Queen. Think at the Center Counter. Chess fundamentals state that a Queen is much better placed on d8 than d6? Qd6 is a target leading to troubles? PROVIDE VARIATIONS!

3...cxd5 is also good, I don't say no. I just want to see a refutation of Qxd5 based on analysis, not on dogmas.

After your 2...e6, where is the light-squared Bishop going to play? 3.Ab2 d5 4.e5!? for example: 4...Bxb4 5.Qxg4 Bf8 (and Black has 8 men at home).

Yes, I need to be mentored to these chess fundamentals, since they differs from those I know; e.g. how do you judge 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6? Is it good to develop a Black Bishop on d6 when there're pawns at c7, d7 and e5?

Alex
Alex
v_glorioso12 21 ( +1 | -1 )
to your 1st question... White can move Bb2, dollowed by Qc2, Nbd2, and 0-0

to your 2nd question
white can proceed with 11.dxc5 Nxc5; 12.Bxh7(or 12.Bxc5 Qxc5 followed by 13.Bxh7)

hope this helped
pamela024 23 ( +1 | -1 )
Good thinking, v_glorioso12 Now consider:
1. Do you think Ne4 would be a better perch for Black than retreating to d7, regardless of whether c3 can be defended? And note how Black ties up White's pieces.
2. After 11. dxc5, then Qd8! If 12. Bxh7 then White's B is trapped, by g6.
v_glorioso12 55 ( +1 | -1 )
ok to numba 1:i really dont know

to numba 2, white can just take on g6, after pawn takes, queen takes, exchanging bishop for 3 pawns, and white has 2 passed pawns; wheather its important or all in the middle game, in the ending, if no side takes control of the other, and the material stays even, the bishop is no match to the 2 passed pawns with the help of the king, when it advancesto the 5th-8th rank

here is some analysis

11dxc5 Qd8?; 12.Bxh7! g6; 13.Bxg6 fxg6; 14.Qxg6+ Ke7; 15.Qg7+ Kd8; 16.Bg5+ Kd7; 17.Na3 a6; 18.c4 d4; 19.Rfd1 Bc3; 20.Rab1 Nb4; 21.Nxd4 Nxa2 and it's very messy
v_glorioso12 2 ( +1 | -1 )
hey anyone there?
pamela024 5 ( +1 | -1 )
What if 14. ... Kf8? Then 15. ? Ndxe5. It would be an interesting game.
v_glorioso12 2 ( +1 | -1 )
this is a cool discussion
v_glorioso12 7 ( +1 | -1 )
ummmm prob. bad for black, what about Ng5!! wins a pawn or mate
pamela024 19 ( +1 | -1 )
And you are working quite hard. That bodes well for your future. Good luck! I'll be on later if you (or anyone else) would like to play the 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 variation. Exciting stuff!
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
k
v_glorioso12 6 ( +1 | -1 )
anyone there just keeping this discussion forum alive
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
anybody out there?
pamela024 3 ( +1 | -1 )
If you are still interested, we can play here or I can challenge you.
acne 13 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4 e5
3.Nf3 d5
4.Nxe5 Bxb4
5.c3 Bd6
6.d4 Qe7
7.Be3 dxe4

Now if 8.Bc4 Bxe5. So I think White would play 5.Nd3

1.e4 c6
2.b4 e5
3.Nf3 d5
4.Nxe5 Bxb4
5.Nd3 Be7
6.exd5 Nf6
7.Bb2 cxd5
8.Be2 Nc6
9.O-O O-O
10.Bf3 Bf5
11.Nc3 Qb6

Now if 12.Rb1 Rad8
v_glorioso12 3 ( +1 | -1 )
me? if you mean me, i am at my game limit
v_glorioso12 8 ( +1 | -1 )
to the first one, instead of 8.Bc4, why not 8.Nc4

in the second analysis, if ...Nxd3; cxd3 and white has double isolated d-pawns
pamela024 9 ( +1 | -1 )
Well, we could play on this thread if you want. That way we can discuss the various moves.
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
yeah, cool 1.e4
acne 0 ( +1 | -1 )
if 8.Nc4 8....Bc7

1....c6
pamela024 4 ( +1 | -1 )
Would you two, acne and v_glorioso12, rather play?
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
i would rather play against you ...
acne 4 ( +1 | -1 )
i can't start a game but i can accept challenges =)
pamela024 3 ( +1 | -1 )
Okay 1. ... c6. Acne, you (and others) comment.
v_glorioso12 2 ( +1 | -1 )
i'm at my game limit
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4
acne 7 ( +1 | -1 )
v_glorioso12, you can accept challenges, my game limit is 14 but i'm playing 17 games.
v_glorioso12 10 ( +1 | -1 )
cool, but i cant challenge you, i tried if i cant challenge you, then you prob. cant challenge me, cause u are over game limit
v_glorioso12 10 ( +1 | -1 )
cool, but i cant challenge you, i tried if i cant challenge you, then you prob. cant challenge me, cause u are over game limit
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
A board is more convenient!
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
you dont have a chess board?
acne 4 ( +1 | -1 )
how about pamela024 challenge both of us?
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
or both of you challenge me?
pamela024 13 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4--just a thought, perhaps d5 at this point is better (analyse that later), I stick with Bxb4 now.
acne 6 ( +1 | -1 )
i cant challenge you, i've reached the game limit already
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
k 1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3 Bxb4
4.c3
pamela024 3 ( +1 | -1 )
I've got about fifteen boards but now at least one is dedicated here.
acne 1 ( +1 | -1 )
is 4.Bb2 better?
pamela024 7 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. c3 Ba5--logical alternatives: Bc5, Be7. Ba5 takes better aim at your King.
pamela024 4 ( +1 | -1 )
Acne, I think Bb2 may be better. Check that out vg.
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
New idea in the works?
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
ummmm 1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3 Bxb4
4.c3 Ba5
5.d4
6.
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v_glorioso12 12 ( +1 | -1 )
after 4.Bb2 4...Bf8; 5.d4 d5; 6.Bd3 Nf6

who stands better if anyone?
white could continue with 7.e5 Nfd7; 8.0-0 c5; 9.c3 Nc6

it resembles French Defence Advanced
v_glorioso12 10 ( +1 | -1 )
but..... after 10.Nbd2 Qb6 11.Rb1 cxd4; 12.cxd4 Qd8(to keep it off the open file(s)) white can choose from 13.Qb3, 13.Qa5, or 13.Nb3
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
Okay, let's see: 1. e4 c6 2 b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. c3 Ba5 5. d4 d5
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3 Bxb4
4.c3 Ba5
5.d4 d5
6.Bd3
7.
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pamela024 17 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. c3 Ba5 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4--this is a better move than Nf6 as it attacks your piece, is the foundation of another attack, develops a piece (my N) and helps to clear the center.
v_glorioso12 3 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3 Bxb4
4.c3 Ba5
5.d4 d5
6.Bd3 dxe4
7.Bxd4
8.
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pamela024 7 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6 2. b4 e6 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. c3 Ba5 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4 7. Bxd4 Nf6--now I can develop it and attack your piece.
v_glorioso12 5 ( +1 | -1 )
oh, just copy and paste my move list, so it would be easier for both you and me :)
v_glorioso12 3 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6
2.b4 e6
3.Nf3 Bxb4
4.c3 Ba5
5.d4 d5
6.Bd3 dxe4
7.Bxd4 Nf6
8.Bd3
9.
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v_glorioso12 12 ( +1 | -1 )
there is just one possibly bad thing about not letting me push my e-pawn.....i can put my knight on e5, a square that would have been occupied byy my e-pawn
pamela024 6 ( +1 | -1 )
How about if I just give you my response. In this case: 8. ... 0-0.
v_glorioso12 3 ( +1 | -1 )
k 1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0
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pamela024 20 ( +1 | -1 )
I have to tell you that when I look at the board now I see a positional advantage for Black. I think you need to rethink the notion of not defending b4--and I would suggest defending it with a3 as in the game I showed you. 9. ... Re8.
v_glorioso12 25 ( +1 | -1 )
advantage for black? i shouldn't say this, but your bishop on a5 isn't doing anything, it is just sitting there. and spaceqise, you have 5 !! i have 11 !!
your knight is pinned (or it will be on my next move!) your queens bishop is blocked.....

1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5
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pamela024 36 ( +1 | -1 )
Taking another look, I will go further and say that Black's position is very strong and White's is losing. My position is without risk and yours is weak at c3, and as a result, d4. Also, you must keep defending c3 now, and doing that with a material deficit is suicide. See, when you failed to defend b4, you ended up having to defend c3--that is a bad trade-off.
pamela024 3 ( +1 | -1 )
Okay, let's see. I will move: 10. ... c5.
v_glorioso12 14 ( +1 | -1 )
%^&@ hmmmmmm i see your point..
i should look more into the 2...e6 line
this is probably bad, but....

1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5
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pamela024 3 ( +1 | -1 )
11. ... Nc6. Your move was reasonable, but...
v_glorioso12 12 ( +1 | -1 )
i have a bad pawn structure.... but i might have a possible attack, i shouldnt give out anymore thoughts....

1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qa4
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v_glorioso12 7 ( +1 | -1 )
i messed up, can i take back? since this is kindof like a study, can i take back?
v_glorioso12 4 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2
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v_glorioso12 13 ( +1 | -1 )
1.e4 c6; 2.b4!? e6 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.c3 Ba4; 5.d4 d5; 6.e5
since 6.Bd3 allows 6...dxe4; 7.Bxd4 Nf6 and black gains a tempo and has a slightly better game than white
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
12. Qc2 h6
v_glorioso12 4 ( +1 | -1 )
thanx 1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2
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pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
13. ... e5
v_glorioso12 4 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1
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acne 8 ( +1 | -1 )
i'm playing 15 games now, will you challenge me for a game? i want to learn and try this too.
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
noone is coming
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
14. ... Bg4.
v_glorioso12 4 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4
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55.
56.
57.
58.
59.
60.
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
15. ... Qd5.
v_glorioso12 4 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
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53.
54.
55.
56.
57.
58.
59.
60.
acne 1 ( +1 | -1 )
why 15....Qd5? how about 15....e5?
v_glorioso12 2 ( +1 | -1 )
i would just do Be2 ... this is not my move
acne 3 ( +1 | -1 )
take bishop then Qd5
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
its almost the same thing
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
16. ...Rad8.
v_glorioso12 6 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.
32.
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53.
54.
55.
56.
57.
58.
59.
60.
acne 1 ( +1 | -1 )
thanks
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
17. ... Qxd3.
v_glorioso12 8 ( +1 | -1 )


1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.
32.
33.
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35.
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53.
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55.
56.
57.
58.
59.
60.
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
18. ...Rxd3.
v_glorioso12 9 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.
32.
33.
34.
35.
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59.
60.
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
19. ... Rxe3.
v_glorioso12 11 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
20. ... Nxg4.
v_glorioso12 34 ( +1 | -1 )
you have a big advantage, by the end of the 30th move, and i dont have atleast a 50/50 chance to draw, i will resign. after that, wanna start another forum just for these Caro-Kann games?

1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3 Nxg4
21.Bd2
22.
23.
24.
25.
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
21. ... Rd8.
v_glorioso12 7 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry, my brother wants to use the computer, i will be back in 1-2 hours
pamela024 45 ( +1 | -1 )
No problem. I was off for a long time doing the family thing. Yes, Black has a big advantage and the game (for Black) was both natural flowing (intuitive) and not very difficult. I would say the opening needs more work in the "e6" line and I really do think you must defend b4 from the get-go--I don't think the opening makes sense without it. As shown in the game by Labahn, you lose very little by defending b4. Why don't you start a game with acne. Move 30 or so is fine.
v_glorioso12 12 ( +1 | -1 )
im back 1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3 Nxg4
21.Bd2 Rd8
22.Nf5
23.
24.
25.
pamela024 0 ( +1 | -1 )
22. ... Bc7.
acne 3 ( +1 | -1 )
pamela024 may i have a game with you?
pamela024 4 ( +1 | -1 )
As I suggested above why don't you two play together. I've got too many games now.
acne 4 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry i've had a game with v_glorioso12 already
v_glorioso12 12 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3 Nxg4
21.Bd2 Rd8
22.Nf5 Bc7
23.h3
24.
25.
pamela024 6 ( +1 | -1 )
23. ... Nf6. How did the game between acne and vg go? What line did you play?
v_glorioso12 18 ( +1 | -1 )
i lost bad.... it went
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e5
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. Nxe5 d5
5. Bb2 Nf6
6. c3 Bd6
7. f4 Nxe4
8. Qf3 O-O
9. d4 Re8
10. Bd3 f6
11. Ng4 Ng5+

my move is...
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3 Nxg4
21.Bd2 Rd8
22.Nf5 Bc7
23.h3 Nf6
24.Be3
25.
pamela024 35 ( +1 | -1 )
24. ... Ne4. You know I was looking at this game again and I now think that 3. ... Bxb4 is not the best move. Note that White must not let e4 be taken, so 3. ... d5 is better (Nf6 is not good because of 4. e5). White then goes 4. exd5 and now Black can take b4. With this play Black is now even stronger, suggesting, again, that not defending b4 is a blunder.
v_glorioso12 24 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 c6
2. b4 e6
3. Nf3 Bxb4
4. c3 Ba5
5. d4 d5
6. Bd3 dxe4
7. Bxd4 Nf6
8. Bd3 0-0
9. 0-0 Re8
10.Bg5 c5
11.dxc5 Nc6
12.Qc2 h6
13.Bd2 e5
14.Re1 Bg4
15.Nh4 Qd5
16.f3 Rad8
17.fxg4 Qxd3
18.Qxd3 Rxd3
19.Re3 Rxe3
20.Bxe3 Nxg4
21.Bd2 Rd8
22.Nf5 Bc7
23.h3 Nf6
24.Be3 Ne4
25.Na3
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

After this game, do you want to play more, but in another thread, with some different lines?
pamela024 20 ( +1 | -1 )
25. ... Nxc3. That should do it. I don't think Black can be prevented from winning now. About playing again, I think I need a break. Why don't you invite acne or someone else to try other lines?
v_glorioso12 20 ( +1 | -1 )
what about the line... 1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e6; 3.Nf3 d5; 4.exd5 and now you suggest 4...Bxb4; 5.dxc6 common since tells you to take with the knight 5...Nxc6; 6.c3 Ba5; 7.Bb5 Bd7; 8.Qa4 Rc8; 9.Ba3 Nge7; 10.0-0 0-0; 11.Bd3 g6; 12.Qh4 f6; 13.Bb2 Qe8; 14.c4 Qf7

interesting game,
white has -attack; space; initiative
black has -1 x-tra knight out
v_glorioso12 1 ( +1 | -1 )
k, gg i resign
v_glorioso12 23 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry, i made a mistake

1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e6; 3.Nf3 d5; 4.exd5 and now you suggest 4...Bxb4; 5.dxc6 common sense tells you to take with the knight 5...Nxc6; 6.c3 Ba5; 7.Bb5 Bd7; 8.Qa4 Rc8; 9.Ba3 Nge7; 10.0-0 0-0; 11.Bd3 g6; 12.Qh4 f6; 13.Bb2 Qe8; 14.c4 Qf7

interesting game,
white has -attack; space; initiative
black has -1 x-tra knight out
pamela024 17 ( +1 | -1 )
Yes, I think that line comes close. Good game. You are a very good player for your age. I'm surprised you didn't do better against acne. Good luck!
v_glorioso12 0 ( +1 | -1 )
than x
acne 3 ( +1 | -1 )
pamela024 Thank you for your advice =)
pamela024 1 ( +1 | -1 )
Good luck to both of you.
v_glorioso12 64 ( +1 | -1 )
i lost a game here.... in the World Amatuer Open i was black against a 1470 :-(

i will provide the game with personal analysis after while

Note:in moves 23 and 24 i was looking at Rac1

Note:I scored 1 out of 4 points:2 of each draws and losses, and didn't play the 5th round

1.e4 c6
2.b4 d5
3.exd5 cxd5
4.Bb2 Bf5
5.Nf3 e6
6.Be2 Nf6
7.b5 Nbd7
8.0-0 Bd6
9.d4 Qc7
10.Bd3 Bg4
11.h3 Bh5
12.Nbd2 Nb6
13.a4 Nc4
14.Bxc4 dxc4
15.Ba3 Rd8
16.Bxd6 Rxd6
17.c3 0-0
18.Qe2 Rc8
19.g4 Bg6
20.Ne5 Bd6
21.Nxd6 cxd6
22.Qxd6 Qxc3
23.Qxc3 Rxc3
24.g5 Rxd4
25.Rac1 Nd5
26.Kh1 h6
27.Rxc6 Nxc6
28.Rc1 Nxa4
29.Nf3 Rd5
30.gxh6 gxh6
31.Ra1 Nc3
32.Rxa7 Rxb5
33.Nh2 Ne2
34.Ng4 Kg7
35.Ne3 Nd4
36.Nc4 Nf5
37.Na5 Nd6
38.Kg2 Kg6
39.Kf3 Kf5
40.Ke3 e5
41.Kd3 Kf4
42.Ke2 e4
43.Ra8 f5
44.Rd8 Ke5
45.Ra8 Rb2+
46.Ke1 f4
47.Nxb7 Rxb7

and I just went down from there..... :-(

1-0 ... i should've resigned earlier, but my dad would've gotten mad...... :-(

feel free to post analysis or anything
:-)
refutor 114 ( +1 | -1 )
a little patzer analysis... first of all i find 2.b4 intriguing v. the caro-kann and i think it's worthy of a try in a blitz game or something, probably not good in a long game but i've been wrong before. the most intriguing line i see out of all this is the ...e5, ...Bxb4, c3, Ba5 line with white building up the strong center for the b-pawn, similar to the evans gambit.

in your game -

- when i first played over your game, i thought that the b5 push was a little early but i would be happy enough with the position after 13.a4
- for the people playing over the game, the moves are 20. ... Be3 21.Nxd3 cxd3 22.Qxd3
-after 22. Qxc3 23.R anything c1?! may have been interesting i think...forcing him to give up the queen for 2 rooks...the queen and knight are known to work well together
-unless i entered the moves wrong, can't black just take your knight on d2 after 26.Kh1?

in any case, you handled the opening fairly well but the c3-d4 pawn duo was easier for the opponent to attack and you thought, and you seemed to lose your way once he got into your position, by moving his bishop to d3 and then capturing the c3 pawn. i'm still gonna try it a couple of times in blitz to see how it goes :)
macheide 29 ( +1 | -1 )
v_glorioso12 Dear friend,

I'm in my office and don't have a chessboard to analyse more comfortable, but I had been analysing blinfold the position 1.e4 c6, 2.b4 for more than an hour and I hadn't find anything wrong with 2...e5!?
I think the move is solid and flawless. What do you think?

Your friend,

macheide.
v_glorioso12 98 ( +1 | -1 )
e5 is good i dont see anything wrong with it, but there is 3.Nf3, which attacks the pawn and gains a tempo unless Qe7, blocking the King's Bishop, or Bd6, which waists the Bishop's move, there is d6, but that also blocks the bishop and the attack on the pawn. f6 opens up the king's position, and since i dont have a chessboard with me right now, i cant prove it to be bad, but it looks like it might fall into the trap similar to
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f6
3.Nxe5! fxe5
4.Qh5+ Ke7
5.Qxe5+
and white will win with his strong attack.
but in this caro-kann variation, Qe7 looks good, (and as i said, i dont have a chessboard in this room, and i dont feel like going to my room out of this chair.) i cant see variations.

There is also the simple Bxb4, which after Nxe5, i have provided a variation a long time ago.

1.e4 c6; 2.b4 e5; 3.Nf3 Bxb4; 4.Nxe5 Qe7; 5.Bb2 d5; 6.Nd3 Qxe4+; 7.Qe2 Qxe2+; 8. Be2 Bf8; 9.0-0 Nbd7; 10.Re1 Ne7; 11.Bf3 Nf6; 12.Nxf6 gxf6; 13.Nc3 Be6; 14.Nc5 Bc8; 15.a4 b6; 16.Nb3 Bb7; 17.a5
it is a little 'out-dated', but no board in this room :-S shoulder shrug
atrifix 31 ( +1 | -1 )
After 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. Nxe5 Qe7 5. Bb2 d5 6. Nxc6 seems to give white an advantage.

Was anything wrong with brunetti's lines? (1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nxe5 dxe4 5. Bb2 Be6=+; 1. e4 c6 2. b4 e5 3. Nf3 Bxb4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. exd5 Qxd5 6. Bb2 Nf6=+; 1. e4 c6 2. b4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd6 (although Qd8 is also good, white will lose time when black plays ...e6) is about =).
macheide 29 ( +1 | -1 )
atrifix Dear atrifix,

I was thinking in other move orders, you mention:
1.e4 c6, 2.b4, e5!?, 3.Nf3 Bxb4, 4.Nxe5 Qe7, 5.Bb2 d5..., but I think 5....Nf6! is better and I would prefer to play the black side.
The best way to prove a variation is practice, if someone wants I can play the black side of the 1.e4 c6, 2.b4 e5!? with gusto.

Best regards.
atrifix 18 ( +1 | -1 )
Perhaps I was only giving 5... d5 because vincent gave it, but I can find nothing wrong with brunetti's earlier suggestion of 4... d5 when Black seems to have an advantage in development.